[Fwd: [max-msp] it's over]

Trond Lossius lossius at bek.no
Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:48:31 +0100

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So, censorship once more. After all the Max/MSP list did not prove to be
the exception to the rule that mailing lists concerned about software
should be independent of the software vendor.

Time to revitalize the 55 list?

nn's reaction is posted at



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Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:21:25 -0800
To: max-msp@cycling74.com
From: David Zicarelli <zicarell@cycling74.com>
Subject: [max-msp] it's over
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We have removed the user "netochka nezvanova" from the Max/MSP
community discussion site. Additionally, we have blocked all of
the domains we believe are controlled by this user from registering
for the Max/MSP discussion site.

We have reason to believe that the individual or group using this name has
initiated legal action against Cycling '74, and it is no longer
in our interest to provide a forum for continual attacks against
me and my co-workers. It has never been in our interest of course,
but we felt there were certain reasons to ignore these attacks
and permit "netochka nezvanova" to continue participating here.

Those reasons have now disappeared, as I will discuss below. Whether
or not there is actually any legal action taken against us is immaterial.

If you object to this action, you are free to start your own
Max/MSP discussion list. I will not participate in any list
in which "netochka nezvanova" participates, and I will discourage
my co-workers from doing so as well. If any individual posts
anything "netochka nezvanova" writes to our discussion, they will be
similarly removed. If this doesn't stop the flow of material from
"netochka nezvanova" to our discussion we will resort to moderating
every contribution.

Let me say a few things about this action. As I indicated
above, there were reasons I felt it was worth allowing "netochka
nezvanova" to participate here. First, "she" had developed software based
in Max/MSP and desired to share it with others. It seemed
wrong to me to keep people from learning about it. That
was a while ago. Everyone who participates here knows about Nato
now. There have been Nato workshops, concerts, discussion lists, and
Nato is now distributed by IRCAM and V2. "She" doesn't need our "help" anymore,
and from all appearances there is a very low percentage of the material
submitted to the list that actually concerns the software. There is a
mailing list for support of Nato users in addition to at least two
lists run by other parties where Nato is discussed. None of this
existed when we decided to take the list over and allow "her"

Second, after "she" was thrown off the McGill list, "she" intiated
what could best be described as a terror campaign that included
spam to anyone who posted to the Max list, denial of service attacks,
and threatening and slanderous e-mail sent to random individuals at
McGill. I didn't see any point to subjecting myself and my co-workers
to this type of harrassment. However, it turns out that many of these
acts are felonies. If this behavior recommences, the victims of the
behavior can pursue legal remedies, and I would strongly suggest they do

Third, a lot of people complained to me about the fact that the
price of Nato was being held "hostage" until "netochka nezvanova"
was again allowed to participate in the Max mailing list.
I was supposed to do something about this. Presumably all of
these people have purchased their software by now.
In any case, the price of Nato has nothing to do with whether
"netochka nezvanova" participates in the Max list, and it never
did. We do not control the price of Nato.

I want to apologize to all of you who have had to put up with the
presence of "netochka nezvanova" during our management of this
discussion service. We will try to do better.

David Z.